Low End Mac on Google Groups

Lisa 2

Low End Mac's LisaList Group

a group for Apple Lisa users

group begun 2000.06.18, moved to Google Groups 2006.03

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LisaList is a forum for Apple Lisa users.

Following our "once removed" rule, discussion of 68000-based compact Macs (128, 512k, Plus, SE, and Classic) and the Macintosh XL is also allowed.

Low End Mac is not a Lisa site, although we do have profiles of the Lisa and Lisa 2/Macintosh XL. Low End Mac is unable to provide any support for the Lisa.

Be sure to read our guide to netiquette before posting to the group. If you wish to discuss group rules, please join LEMlists, our 'meta-group' for discussing our groups and their rules.

How can I subscribe to LisaList?

There are several ways to read messages from The LisaList Group:

You can subscribe via email or online.

To subscribe via email, send an email to lisalist+subscribe@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe, send an email to lisalist+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. You must register online if you wish to set your subscription to digest mode, abridged messages, or no email.

To subscribe online, go to http://groups.google.com/group/lisalist and click on Join this group. You do not need a Google/Gmail account to participate. If you don't have a Gmail address or wish to use another address, click on the Sign up now link.

Although you will begin receiving messages from the group right away, Google Groups will not accept an email posting until you confirm your email address. Also, in an attempt to keep spammers out, the first messages from new members will be checked by a group manager before they are posted.

You will receive a confirmation email from Google Groups at your subscribed address. You must click on the link in this message to verify your email address. That will generate a second email from Google Groups, and it's only after responding to the second message that you'll be able to post to the group. Watch out - one or both of these may be marked as junk mail by your spam filter.

Use http://groups.google.com/group/lisalist to change your subscription mode or remove yourself from the group.

To help prevent spammers from using the to the entire group, and to keep others from subscribing your address without your approval, you will receive an email from the Google Groups server asking you to confirm your subscription. Simply reply as instructed and your subscription will be active.

Please report any subscription problems to the group owner at .

Online Subscription Management

Go to http://groups.google.com/ and select "Sign in". Enter your subscribed email address and password. You may also want to check "Stay signed in".

Google Groups will display a list of all groups that this email address is subscribed to. Click on "Manage my memberships" - this is where you can change your nickname, your subscribed email address, and your subscription type (how you receive messages from the group).

What about anti-spam services?

We take whatever steps we can to keep spam off our lists, but short of moderating every message on every to the entire group, we can't prevent some from occasionally reaching the list. Whatever filtering you do with your email software and your email service is up to you.

That said, we take a dim view of anti-spam services such as Spam Arrest and Cashette that require the sender of a message to respond to a message from the anti-spam service (a "challenge and response" system) before allowing the recipient to receive the posting. Such a service inconveniences anyone who posts to the group and is unnecessary.

These are all closed lists, so there should be virtually no spam. Only those who have requested a subscription and confirmed their subscription are allowed to post. Please don't inconvenience our members by asking them to jump through hoops to keep your mailbox spam free.

Any subscriber using this kind of anti-spam service for group messages will receive one warning and be temporarily blocked from posting to the list. If the situation is not resolved quickly, the subscriber will be banned. The burden should be on the spammers, not innocent group members.

Note that this applies specifically to messages sent to the group, not to individual correspondence with group members.

How can I distinguish messages from LisaList from all the other email I get?

Messages from this group will include "lisalist" in their footer.

Who sponsors LisaList?

Dan Knight of Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/ manages LisaList, which was begun on June 18, 2000. Dan Auerbach (a.k.a. listmister) is the group "nanny" (group manager).

Is LisaList only for users of Apple Lisa computers?

While anyone may join, this group will be most helpful to those using Lisas.

How does Google Groups work?

Anyone who has access to the Internet may join to LisaList at http://groups.google.com/group/lisalist. Members can receive an email copy of every message sent to the posting address, lisalist@googlegroups.com. If you wish to reply or post a new message everyone to the group, send email - either replying to the message to which you are responding or sending a new one - to lisalist@googlegroups.com.

The group is set up so selecting "Reply" to an individual message in your emailer will send a message to the entire group. (Replying to the digest will send your email to noreply@googlegroups.com, a black hole for email.) If you wish to respond individually to the sender of the message, be sure to address your message accordingly. There should be no need to copy messages to both the author and the group, since the author is a member of the group.

When replying, always ask yourself if your reply should go privately to the sender or to the entire group.

Do you have rules for replying to the group?

Yes, we do.

Please post your messages in English, as Low End Mac and these groups serve a primarily English-speaking audience. Postings in other languages will be rejected by the group managers.

We ask that you only quote relevant portions of the original posting in your reply, and we recognize that the Google Groups online reply system may not allow that.

We also ask that you not use your email program's reply feature to begin a new discussion. This is because Google Groups may see that your message as a reply based on data in the message header and add it to an existing thread. When starting a new discussion thread, be sure to compose a new email instead of replying to an unrelated message.

What is netiquette?

There are informal rules of the Internet which are termed "netiquette" to help people use proper etiquette within this form of communication. For more on online etiquette, click here.

Who is in the group?

That would be telling.

Because Google Groups requires an email address but not a name, I may not have names of all members of the group. We currently have 120 members, and people don't need to join the group to read postings online.

How can I get a copy of the email addresses for members?

You can't. To communicate with the group, send messages to the posting address lisalist@googlegroups.com. Google deliberately blocks access to the subscriber list to prevent addresses from being harvested by spammers.

What topics may be discussed?

Anything relating to LisaList. LisaList is mostly an unmoderated closed group. Unmoderated means messages are sent to the group without prior knowledge of the group owner or managers; closed means only members may post. The group is closed to help fight spam, and first postings from new members must be reviewed and approved by a group manager before they are sent to the group, a step made necessary by spammers.

Group managers are authorized to remove the following types of messages from the group archive: spam, test messages, and unsubscribe postings. Content of each message is the responsibility of the person posting it.

Because the group is closed, you will only be able to post from a subscribed address.

What topics may not be discussed?

The list is short:

What tone is expected in the discussion and who will facilitate this?

This has become a kind and helpful community. Since Mac users range from beginners to gurus, please be tolerant of "dumb" questions, and please don't bait or snipe at each other.

As these groups serve members of all ages and persuasions, potentially offensive, inflammatory, or controversial nicknames, email addresses, domain names, and signatures are not welcome and may lead to your membership being moderated, suspended, or cancelled.

The group is expected to handle things responsibly, and members are expected to behave in such a way that the group requires minimal administrative intervention. When action is required, the group owner and managers will act in accordance with our Rules for Group Management. This page also defines terms (ban, block, flame, troll, etc.) and lists the responsibilities of members.

Please report any major breach of netiquette to the .

Is there an accessible archive of messages sent to the group?

Yes, it's available at http://groups.google.com/group/lisalist.

What other Internet resources are available for users of Lisas?

See the Lisa Index for our collection of Lisa links.

I subscribed, but get no messages. What's up?

Google Groups can be set so that "no email" is the default option, and all of our lists were inadvertently set that way. We have since set them so subscribers will receive individual emails as the default. My apologies.

It's possible (but not easy) to subscribe with an incorrect email address. The list server checks all bounced messages to determine why they bounced. If the address is invalid, it is removed from the subscriber list. If the problem is temporary, like a full mailbox, the server temporarily suspends your subscription. If this results in still more bounces, the server will eventually remove the address.

If you are subscribing from a free email account, note that some of these services are very busy and messages may bounce. This can even happen with commercial services, and Apple's .mac seems to experience this frequently. If this persists, it could lead to your name being removed the list. We recommend you to use an ISP account for the list instead of a free email service.

We take a hard line against unsolicited commercial email. To prevent spam, the list is closed and certain domains are blocked by the mail server and the list server.

I sent a reply to the list, but I never received a copy.

Google Groups sometimes makes the assumption that you know what you've posted, so you don't need to receive a copy; there's no way we can change that if it happens. However, your posting will show up online and you will see it if you receive the list in digest form.

I subscribed, but I can't post.

Google Groups requires you to confirm and verify your subscription before you can post. And, like most email lists, their software may not me@recognize mail.domain.com and me@domain.com as being the same. Make sure the From: and Reply-to: address in your email client match the address you used to join the list.

I have had reports of people who are subscribed and unable to post. If this happens to you, please forward your message to so we can investigate. We're still learning how Google Groups works, and Google Groups remains in beta.

I sent a message, but it never appeared. Why?

There are several possible reasons a posting can bounce.

Do you have any policies about selling products or services on the list?

I've learned that some of the experts on any list gain their expertise professionally. For instance, I was the information systems manager for an 85 Mac network. For those who make a living selling equipment or services, we have the following guidelines.

  1. List members may mention the availability of commercial services or products on the list, but no prices. (Individuals may list personal equipment with prices.)
  2. All correspondence regarding services or products should be conducted privately, not on the list.
  3. Neither the publisher nor the list mom makes any claim regarding services or products offered by members of the list.

To simplify things, we set up the Low End Mac Swap List as a place for list members to buy, sell, and trade Mac-related goods.

For the most part, items for sale should be listed on the Swap List, which has over 2,200 subscriptions. We make exceptions for the international lists (Australia, Canada, UK), the non-Mac lists (Apple II, Lisa, Newton), and items that would only be of interest to members of a specific list. Keep in mind that the swap list is generally the best place to list items for sale, since it has more subscribers than any of the other lists.

That said, the swap list is a very busy list, and we don't think anyone should have to subscribe just so they can sell a personal item or system, so we do allow posting of items for sale on all lists - but only when they are specifically related to that list. That means no posting Quadras for sale on the iMac list, for instance.

To avoid this list turning into a swapfest, we restrict subscribers to one such postings per calendar year

We discourage posting links to your eBay and other online auctions, and such postings are explicitly forbidden on the swap list. We also discourage links to other items available through online auctions unless they are unusual and of special interest to that list, such as the Piña tomes covering vintage Macs.

Do you block any specific domains?

We are firmly committed to the free exchange of information on our lists. Some mail servers censor incoming email - orvis.com in particular. We don't take preemptive action against subscribers using such mail servers, but we do reserve the right to unceremoniously unsubscribe them without advance notice when their content filters "quarantine" list messages.

If you receive a "quarantine" message, please forward it to the so we can deal with it. Thanks!

Dan Knight,

How to Email the Group Owner

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