Low End Mac on Google Groups

Low End Mac's LEM Swap List

A group for Mac traders

group begun 2000.09.03, moved to Google Groups 2006.03

Updated to specifically prohibit sale of Windows 2007.08. Updated to specifically allow iPhones 2009.06. Updated to clarify posting of iPod and iPhone accessories 2009.12.

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LEM Swap is Low End Mac's Google Group for buying and selling Mac OS/OS X computers and related goods. iPhones and iPods are considered "related goods", but iPod and iPhone accessories are not. This is a Mac swap list, not an iPhone or iPod one. PCs are expressly forbidden even if they are running OS X, as are most *nix boxen except for NeXT hardware. Palms and PDAs are acceptable as long as they can be used with Macs. Vintage Apple hardware (Apple II, Apple III, Lisa, and Newton) are allowed.

In October 2006, we launched a separate group, PC Swap, for buying, selling, and trading x86 PCs.

The rule of thumb for "related goods" is that they require the use of a computer to be fully functional - so a printer or webcam would qualify, while a digital camera or camcorder would not, as these are fully functional even if they're never tied to a computer.

This is not a discussion group.

We recommend Apple II/III, Lisa, and Newton owners use Apple2list, LisaList, and NewtonList, respectively, when listing Apple II/III, Lisa, and Newton items for sale. Those in Canada, the UK, and down under may prefer to post their items on the Mac Canada, Mac UK, or Outback Mac lists.

Be sure to read our guide to netiquette before posting to the group.

How can I subscribe to LEM Swap?

There are several ways to read messages from LEM Swap:

You can subscribe via email or online. Note that digest mode does not include the email addresses of posters to protect their privacy and to help prevent spam. If you want to be able to reply via email, you must use "email" (individual message) mode. The other option is to receive the digest and then log in to http://groups.google.com/group/lemswap, locate the message, and use the "reply to author" link.

Never reply to the group. LEM Swap is not a discussion list.

To subscribe via email, send an email to lemswap+subscribe@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe, send an email to lemswap+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. You must register online if you wish to set your subscription to digest mode, abridged messages, or no email.

To subscribe online, go to http://groups.google.com/group/lemswap and click on Join this group. You do not need a Google/Gmail account to participate. If you don't have a Gmail address or wish to use another address, click on the Sign up now link.

Although you will begin receiving messages from the group right away, Google Groups will not accept an email posting until you confirm your email address. Also, in an attempt to keep spammers out, the first messages from new members will be checked by a group manager before they are posted.

You will receive a confirmation email from Google Groups at your subscribed address. You must click on the link in this message to verify your email address. That will generate a second email from Google Groups, and it's only after responding to the second message that you'll be able to post to the group. Watch out - one or both of these may be marked as junk mail by your spam filter.

Use http://groups.google.com/group/lemswap to change your subscription mode, your subscribed address, or remove yourself from the group.

If you use an RSS reader, you can subscribe to the group's RSS feed at http://groups.google.com/group/lemswap/feed/rss_v2_0_msgs.xml

To help prevent spammers from using the to the entire group, and to keep others from subscribing your address without your approval, you will receive an email from the Google Groups server asking you to confirm your subscription. Simply reply as instructed and your subscription will be active.

Please report any subscription problems to the group owner at .

Online Subscription Management

Go to http://groups.google.com/ and select "Sign in". Enter your subscribed email address and password. You may also want to check "Stay signed in".

Google Groups will display a list of all groups that this email address is subscribed to. Click on "Manage my memberships" - this is where you can change your nickname, your subscribed email address, and your subscription type (how you receive messages from the group).

What about anti-spam services?

We take whatever steps we can to keep spam off our lists, but short of moderating every message on every to the entire group, we can't prevent some from occasionally reaching the list. Whatever filtering you do with your email software and your email service is up to you.

That said, we take a dim view of anti-spam services such as Spam Arrest and Cashette that require the sender of a message to respond to a message from the anti-spam service (a "challenge and response" system) before allowing the recipient to receive the posting. Such a service inconveniences anyone who posts to the group and is unnecessary.

These are all closed lists, so there should be virtually no spam. Only those who have requested a subscription and confirmed their subscription are allowed to post. Please don't inconvenience our members by asking them to jump through hoops to keep your mailbox spam free.

Any subscriber using this kind of anti-spam service for group messages will receive one warning and be temporarily blocked from posting to the list. If the situation is not resolved quickly, the subscriber will be banned. The burden should be on the spammers, not innocent group members.

Note that this applies specifically to messages sent to the group, not to individual correspondence with group members.

How can I distinguish messages from LEM Swap from all the other email I get?

Messages from this group will include "lemswap" in their footer, and messages from the Swap Feedback group (see below) will include "swap-feedback" in their footer.

How should items be listed?

The subject line should make it clear whether you want to buy, sell, swap, or give away something - and what it is you're offering or looking for. Please begin for sale subject lines with FS, want to buy with WTB, trades with SWAP, and use FREE for things you're giving away. Follow this by a subject line that make it pretty clear what kind of thing(s) the posting is about.

Who oversees the LEM Swap List?

Dan Knight of Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com manages LEM Swap List, which was begun on September 3, 2000. Beverly Woods, Kyle Hansen, Derek Morton, Tim Gochnour, and Len Gerstel are the group "nannies" (group managers).

How does Google Groups work?

Anyone who has access to Internet email may subscribe to LEM Swap List using the subscription address lemswap+subscribe@googlegroups.com to join the group. Members will receive a copy of every message others have sent to the posting address, lemswap@googlegroups.com. If you wish to reply to the group or post a new message to the group, send email to lemswap@googlegroups.com.

This group is set up so selecting "Reply" in your emailer will send a message to the original sender - this is the opposite of our other lists. If you wish to respond to the group, be sure to address your message to lemswap@googlegroups.com - but remember that this is not a discussion group. There should be no need to copy messages to both the author and the group, since the author is a member of the group.

How do I reply to the sender instead of to the group when using the Google Groups interface?

There are two ways to do this. If you select "Reply with quote", you will have the option of selecting the group or the original poster as the recipient. The second option is to click on "show options" below the date of the message. Here you will see "Reply to author" as one of your options.

How do I know if it's okay to post an item on the to the entire group.?

As it says at the top of the page, "LEM Swap List is the Low End Mac group for buying and selling Mac OS computers and Mac-related goods. PCs are expressly forbidden, as are most *nix boxen except for NeXT hardware. Palms and PDAs are acceptable as long as they can be used with Macs."

Computers designed to run the Mac OS, printers and modems that work with Macs, networking equipment (hubs, cable or DSL modems, base stations, etc.), mice and keyboards, Mac-compatible webcams, flash drives, and hard drives are just some of the things that fit into the "Mac and Mac-related" category.

Windows PCs and software, cell phones, consumer electronics, and digital cameras are examples of things that do not qualify as Mac-related goods. (Rule of thumb: If it works just fine without a computer, like a digicam or cell phone, it's not a computer peripheral and not allowed. If it's dependent on a computer, such as a printer or synching your PDA, it's a peripheral and is allowed.)

Even though Intel-based Macs can run Windows, because of licensing issues (OEM vs. retail copies, Genuine Advantage problems, limits on how many times or on how many machines it can be installed, and licenses that prohibit use of some versions in a virtualized environment), we do not allow the sale of Windows.

What rules do you have about posting items for sale?

When buying and selling

Tracking and Insurance

To protect the buyer, all sales over $100 in value (US, or equivalent in local currency) must be shipped insured if this is at all possible.

Whenever possible, sales over US$25 (or equivalent) should be shipped with tracking numbers so both the buyer and seller can track the shipment.

The Swap Feedback List

We have created a separate group specifically for feedback on Swap List transactions. We ask that you provide feedback - positive or negative - on each transaction. This will help others identify buyers and sellers who do not operate in good faith. As with LEM Swap, this is an unmoderated closed group.

Google Groups
Subscribe to Swap Feedback
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You can join the Swap Feedback group online at http://groups.google.com/group/swap-feedback or emailing swap-feedback+subscribe@googlegroups.com. This is a separate group that requires a separate subscription. It works like the Swap List except that replies go to the group, not the original poster.

If you use an RSS reader, you can subscribe to the group's RSS feed at http://groups.google.com/group/swap-feedback/feed/rss_v2_0_msgs.xml

What is netiquette?

There are informal rules of the Internet ("netiquette") to help people use proper etiquette when communicating online. For more on group netiquette, click here.

Because LEM Swap is for buying and selling, do not use it to promote sales through auction sites.

The group is expected to handle things responsibly, and members are expected to behave in such a way that the group requires minimal administrative intervention. When action is required, the group owner and managers will act in accordance with our Rules for Group Management. This page also defines terms (ban, block, flame, troll, etc.) and lists the responsibilities of members.

Who is in the group?

That would be telling.

Because Google Groups requires an email address but not a name, I may not have names of all members of the group. We currently have over over 2,600 members, and people don't need to join the group to read postings online.

How can I get a copy of the email addresses for members?

You can't. To communicate with the group, send messages to the posting address lemswap@googlegroups.com. We have deliberately blocked access to the subscriber list to prevent addresses from being harvested by spammers.

What topics may be discussed?

LEM-Swap is not a discussion list; it is a forum for buying and selling. Except in rare cases, your reply should be directed to the person making a posting to the group, not to the group itself.

LEM Swap List is mostly an unmoderated closed group. Unmoderated means messages are sent to the group without prior knowledge of the group owner or managers; closed means only members may post. The group is closed to help fight spam, and first postings from new members must be reviewed and approved by a group manager before they are sent to the group, a step made necessary by spammers.

Group managers are authorized to remove the following types of messages from the group archive: spam, test messages, unsubscribe postings, and items prohibited from the list. Content of each message is the responsibility of the person posting it.

Because the group is closed, you will only be able to post from a subscribed address.

What topics may not be discussed?

The list is short:

LEM Swap is not a discussion to the entire group, so discussion is prohibited unless the List Mom initiates it.

What tone is expected in the discussion and who will facilitate this?

This has become a kind and helpful community. Since Mac users range from beginners to gurus, please be tolerant of "dumb" questions, and please don't bait or snipe at each other.

The group is expected to handle things responsibly, and members are expected to behave in such a way that the group requires minimal administrative intervention. When action is required, the group owner and managers will act in accordance with our Rules for Group Management. This page also defines terms (ban, block, flame, troll, etc.) and lists the responsibilities of members.

Please report any major breach of netiquette to the .

Is there an accessible archive of messages sent to the group?

Yes, it's available at http://groups.google.com/group/lemswap.

What other Internet resources are available for buying and selling Macs?

There are several auction sites and used Mac dealers.

I subscribed, but get no messages. What's up?

Google Groups can be set so that "no email" is the default option, and all of our lists were inadvertently set that way. We have since set them so subscribers will receive individual emails as the default. My apologies.

It's possible (but not easy) to subscribe with an incorrect email address. The list server checks all bounced messages to determine why they bounced. If the address is invalid, it is removed from the subscriber list. If the problem is temporary, like a full mailbox, the server temporarily suspends your subscription. If this results in still more bounces, the server will eventually remove the address.

If you are subscribing from a free email account, note that some of these services are very busy and messages may bounce. This can even happen with commercial services, and Apple's .mac seems to experience this frequently. If this persists, it could lead to your name being removed the list. We recommend you to use an ISP account for the list instead of a free email service.

We take a hard line against unsolicited commercial email. To prevent spam, the list is closed and certain domains are blocked by the mail server and the list server.

I sent a reply to the list, but I never received a copy.

Google Groups sometimes makes the assumption that you know what you've posted, so you don't need to receive a copy; there's no way we can change that if it happens. However, your posting will show up online and you will see it if you receive the list in digest form.

I subscribed, but I can't post.

Google Groups requires you to confirm and verify your subscription before you can post. And, like most email lists, their software may not me@recognize mail.domain.com and me@domain.com as being the same. Make sure the From: and Reply-to: address in your email client match the address you used to join the list.

I have had reports of people who are subscribed and unable to post. If this happens to you, please forward your message to so we can investigate. We're still learning how Google Groups works, and Google Groups remains in beta.

I sent a message, but it never appeared. Why?

There are several possible reasons a posting can bounce.

Do you have any policies about selling products or services on the list?

I've learned that some of the experts on any list gain their expertise professionally. For instance, I was the information systems manager for an 85 Mac network. For those who make a living selling equipment or services, we have the following guidelines.

  1. List members may mention the availability of commercial services or products on the list, but no prices. (Individuals may list personal equipment with prices.)
  2. All correspondence regarding services or products should be conducted privately, not on the list.
  3. Neither the publisher nor the list mom makes any claim regarding services or products offered by members of the list.

To simplify things, we set up the Low End Mac Swap List as a place for list members to buy, sell, and trade Mac-related goods.

For the most part, items for sale should be listed on the Swap List, which has over 2,200 subscriptions. We make exceptions for the international lists (Australia, Canada, UK), the non-Mac lists (Apple II, Lisa, Newton), and items that would only be of interest to members of a specific list. Keep in mind that the swap list is generally the best place to list items for sale, since it has more subscribers than any of the other lists.

That said, the swap list is a very busy list, and we don't think anyone should have to subscribe just so they can sell a personal item or system, so we do allow posting of items for sale on all lists - but only when they are specifically related to that list. That means no posting Quadras for sale on the iMac list, for instance.

To avoid this list turning into a swapfest, we restrict subscribers to one such postings per calendar year

We discourage posting links to your eBay and other online auctions, and such postings are explicitly forbidden on the swap list. We also discourage links to other items available through online auctions unless they are unusual and of special interest to that list, such as the Piña tomes covering vintage Macs.

Do you block any specific domains?

We are firmly committed to the free exchange of information on our lists. Some mail servers censor incoming email - orvis.com in particular. We don't take preemptive action against subscribers using such mail servers, but we do reserve the right to unceremoniously unsubscribe them without advance notice when their content filters "quarantine" list messages.

If you receive a "quarantine" message, please forward it to the so we can deal with it. Thanks!

Dan Knight,

How to Email the Group Owner

Please email me at Gmail: