I liked your article
From James Manley
I liked your article on Dueling
Civilizations and your other recent articles regarding religion
and America. I hope all the negative responses to your columns
aren't getting you down. Keep up the insightful commentary.
Thank you.
Chris Manley
Duel of civilizations - my tuppence
From David Hulse
Charles,
I read your original article and thought that whilst it
displayed tendencies towards stereotyping of Muslims, it did raise
some interesting points. However, I have to say that your reaction
to one of the letters, from a Mr. K.
Resche, bordered on playground name-calling against Canadians. In
your reply, you almost seem betrayed that Canadians could possibly
disagree with your rather Republican view of the world. I sometimes
do despair that Americans do not often look beyond their own
borders or place themselves into the shoes of others, which I
believe is probably what the population of Canada is doing. In case
the American media is not reporting it, there is a global unease as
to where the Bush administration is taking America.
You also make a point concerning the lack of democracies within
the Arab world. Funnily enough, after years of turmoil, it looks as
if the closest country in the region to democracy is Iran, which
qualified just in time to join Mr. Bush's Axis of Evil! Other
dictatorial regimes, in Egypt or Saudi Arabia, receive active
support from the USA. Let us also not forget there are many regions
of the world where democracy is thin on the ground and that it
tends to be poverty that is the common link between these countries
rather than religious dogma.
In short, whilst your article made a number of valid points, I
feel that your interpretation of the facts could do with another
point of view to challenge you into thinking the issues through
further, exactly what Mr. Resche's letter was attempting to do. For
you to dismiss his argument with a simple "Where would Canada be
without the USA?" rebuttal is disrespecting the issue at large.
After all, you are only human, and therefore fallible enough to be
wrong occasionally.
David
Hi David,
I had to smile when I read your first paragraph
. . . because I'm a Canadian born and bred. I've lived in
Canada all my life and am typing these words from my redoubt on the
Eastern Shore of Nova Scotia.
There are a few conservatives left in Canada,
although we are a besieged and beleaguered minority. Incidentally,
it was actually a Canadian - conservative journalist David Frum,
then on George Bush's payroll as a speechwriter, who coined the
phrase "axis of evil." You may be familiar with the names of a
couple of rather prominent Canadian conservatives currently
residing in the U.K., Lord Black of Crossharbour - the former
Conrad Black, publisher of the Daily Telegraph, and his wife, Lady
Black, a.k.a. the journalist Barbara Amiel.
Iran a democracy? Not by any definition I would
recognize. There are apparently some factions in Iran who would
like to make it a democracy, but the mullahs still pull the levers
and run the show.
Speaking of poverty and religion, it is actually
only in the more prosperous parts of the world where atheism and
irreligion ever gain any substantial traction. I ran across the
stats that appear below in a column by my colleague and former
editor John MacIntyre on the weekend:
- Percentage of people in Latin America who say they have "a lot"
or "some" confidence in the church, according to a survey by Lagos:
78
- Percentage of people in Latin America who say they have "a lot"
or "some" confidence in the police: 39
- In the judiciary: 35
- In political parties: 18
Where would Canada be without the U.S.? Up the
creek and heading for the rapids without a paddle, being as over 80
percent of our trade is with America, and our entire armed forces
might be able to defend the smallest province, Prince Edward
Island, for a day or two, but I wouldn't bet serious money on even
that. No slur intended against our brave and capable men and women
in uniform, but our federal governments over the past forty years
have allowed the military to deteriorate to such a sorry pass that
it is now just a skeleton force using mostly obsolete equipment.
Without the Americans, we would be in big trouble.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Charles
Note: Below is an edited-down version of a 3,000+
word diatribe I received from the K. Resche David Hulse referred to
on his letter above. I wish I could say it is astonishingly
extreme, but unhappily, the anti-American, anti-Israeli sentiments
he expresses are far from unusual among the Canadian left. A recent
Ipsos-Reid poll of Canadians found 84 per cent of respondents said
the U.S. was at least partly responsible for the Sept. 11 terrorist
attacks.
Sometimes I'm ashamed to be Canadian.
CM
Re: Islam Vs. West
Hello Mr. Moore:
"My god , my god" . . . are you insane? Your articles
concerning computer technology seemed rational . . . you
really don't take this subject very seriously do you? People are
dying, and this is your response? It is to despair.
At times like these, I'm ashamed to be Canadian.
You should be ashamed to be a Canadian . . . because
you are not one . . . you are a American in-waiting
. . . you have no idea what being a Canadian is - I've
often observed how people such as you have no identity, you are
American without being American . . . you are a Canadian,
but that represents nothing to you . . . the idea of
looking at the world in a rational, altruistic, and unprejudiced
manner . . . I imagine you don't even believe that is
possible . . . being a Canadian is hard, but being
American is ready made and almost instant . . . it is
junk food.
So you align your philosophies with your material interests and
pretend there is no hypocrisy . . . you become shallow
and irrational . . . yet supremely rational when it comes
to your own interests . . . the stereotypical American
soul.
Do you understand what real is? I think that you don't.
I've heard you consider yourself a Christian . . .
believe me sir, you are no Christian.
Your Christ of the stars and stripes, who would answer those who
were driven from their homeland with murderous force and
ultra-terrorism . . . who would use polls to prove the
logic of a justifiable and inevitable genocide . . . who
has all answers cheap, easy and in advance . . . who
justifies a nation born in terrorism, responding to terrorism with
ultra-terrorism . . . such a Christ does not exist.
That Christ that would bear and justify these hypocrisies, lies,
murders, propaganda of lies for the purpose of genocide, is
properly called the "anti-christ."
At least be truthful of what church or synagogue you belong
to.
Israel in no way resembles, calls upon, or follows the
conventions of a civilization of the west or democracy as the idea
was meant to be understood . . . except in the "staged"
sense, to say otherwise is a lie.
I have lived in Israel and have seen the system work. I am not
Jewish, but I have not met an honest and intelligent Jew who is not
perfectly aware of what is going on. The objective here is to take
the entire south eastern Mediterranean coast to the Persian Gulf.
If the Palestinians were as docile as cows, that would just serve
as an excuse for Israel to seize them as a barbaric spewer's of
milk and terrorists of the grass. Do not point at elections or the
falsity of Arab seats in the Knesset. There is no democracy for
anyone but Jews, and that is not democracy. Do you think because
the National Post or Andrew Coyne alludes to this, may point to
sham seats in the Knesset in east Jerusalem, it is true? Do lies
and staged antics make a democracy?
Nor could a Christian justify responding to terrorists who have
been murderously driven from their land with ultra terrorism,
targeted assassinations and other prerogatives of Israel that
create the terrorism they want us to believe they are trying to
solve . . . what is the point of the matter? Its obvious
to anyone who can see . . . The point of the matter is
it's a staged play. Terrorism serves Israel more than Palestine, as
it always has. If there is no terrorism they create it. Israel
began with the darkest terrorism that succeeded.
Just as the '67 war was first reported an attack on Israel by
the Arab nations, then when the truth could be no be longer hidden
. . . it was a justified preemptive attack
. . . now its a very pre-preemptive attack, still
justified apparently, but really all a staged play -they win/others
lose and are the "terrorists." They have no intention of giving
Palestine a state, ever, ever. Their objective is the entire west
bank, Gaza, (devoid of Palestinians) part of Syria, all of Lebanon,
half the Sinai and the island of Cyprus . . . and
complete military hegemony of the entire middle east
. . . warlordism as you call it.
You invoke the "Civilization of the West," but your ideas have
no part in it. Men like you only take what you like and leave
whatever doesn't fit your schedule. Nor for you the difficult
Canadian habit of looking objectively and without prejudice and not
taking sides, speaking for justice (this is a shame for you?) and
ignoring the American jackal press. No, you want to get with the
mob . . . it's soon time for a lynching and people like
you can smell that. Nor could anyone except the extremely retarded
think Israel a typical example of Western civilization.
You are a liar Charles Moore, and nor are you Christian
. . . nor can I feel any respect for a man who could
claim part of religion in which genocide, terrorism and violence
play no part . . . and yet you advocate it, you wish to
bring it in, served with sugar, because you think it serves your
interests. You are no part of the church of Christ and you would
only claim otherwise as ultimately you desire to bring it into
disrepute and put it into service of theft and murder. As your type
has done much in the past.
Nor have you any part of the "Civilization of the West"
. . . empirical truth and individual salvation are the
pillars of Western civilization, and culture. Propaganda, lies, and
leading the mass with myths and fables is inimical to the very idea
of the civilization of the west.
Israel is no bulwark of the Civilization of the West in the
middle east . . . it is a bulwark of the Civilization of
the East in the West. It is paving the way, for the excuse and
justification for a despotism of the like never seen here before
. . . using the west and democracy as a cover.
My father told me how just as there is a magnificence about very
good men, so there is a magnificence about very evil men
. . . who do not hide the fact they are evil from
themselves or others. Who had the courage to not lie to conceal
themselves. These evil men were redeemable, out of them is good
created from evil.
But evil men who claim to be good, and think themselves as
do'ers of good, but who only do good for themselves and evil to
others . . . who sit in the church and claim to be
Christian, who read the words of Christ and seek salvation for
themselves, yet sanction the most depraved evils on their distant
neighbours . . . these men are truly evil and close to
irredeemable. They are the deceivers, for they deceive themselves
in order to deceive others . . . out of them nothing but
evil is produced . . . evil in the name of good defiles
both.
In the end they will have no part of good, but even evil will
reject these men.
Put your blood money on Israel Mr. Moore and turn your back on
justice in this conflict. But don't pretend you standing for the
forces of democracy, rule of law . . . and most
especially the "Civilization of the West."
Your standing for prejudice, greed, and terror, which you cloak
with false self righteousness.
K. Resche
P.S.: I think there is a surprise in store for the likes of you.
It is called Justice. You have stated yourself a religious man in
past articles, but apparently you are not aware that the
fundamental mystery of God is inescapable Justice. That means it
distinguishes not the Jew from the Arab. There is no excuse for
murder committed in avarice.
It's interesting how the US almost called it's war against
terrorism "Divine Justice" . . . as almost a screed to
show how it did not believe in a divine justice, God or other than
the divine justice of the winner, but was not against using the
name of God as a weapon of hearts and minds . . . for the
victors terrorism is divine and genocide is justice if rendered on
the loser.
But neither the world nor the United States will escape justice
for their part in the displacement and genocide of the Palestinian
people. It would have been better if they had simply put the entire
nation to the sword . . . this would have been at least
honest . . . but the lies, the staged plays and the
hidden and deep malice and viciousness is a violence against the
spirit and soul of their own people. They have implicated there own
peoples . . . just as they have installed dictators and
warlords in lands in the name of democracy. Divine Justice will
come for all.
And it will come for you, Charles Moore, when you realize your
winners and your victors will reap what they sow . . .
and the harvest will truly be terrible, for what have they sown but
the worst murder and lies? United States always ends up creating
monsters. They made both Saddam Hussein, Osama bin laden and are
responsible for the regime in Iran, but Israel will be the worst.
What will happen when Israel has complete control over the middle
east, weapons of mass destruction and a long history of violent
expropriation and exploitation? Who will be master of ceremonies
then? Civilizations of the West my ass! And then you will realize
there is no excuse that you have stood for murder and lies and
preferred propaganda to an unprejudiced finding out of facts and
justice. You preferred to point the finger at the weak then finding
out the truth and standing up to the strong. And you called
yourself a religious man and wrote articles lauding the Israelis
because you believed in there right to destroy Muslims more than
you believed in justice. You didn't believe in justice.
You say you are a good man but you stand for evil because it
asks less of you.
Mr. Resche,
We are so far apart on a vast number of issues
that I see little point in perpetuating a futile argument.
People who strap high explosive to their children
and send them off to blow themselves up in crowds of innocent
babies and grandmothers are not civilized. Anyone who thinks they
are is horribly deluded.
CM
Dueling Civilizations
From Timothy E. Larson
Dear Sir,
Have you read "What If Jesus Had Never Been Born?" by James
Kennedy? It addresses the good done by the influence of
Christianity (though it's generally attributed now merely to
"Western culture," as if that existed outside the influence of
Christianity) while also looking at the sins of Christendom.
Whenever someone brings up the Inquisition or whatever, I ask them
to read this book first then get back to me. Your articles struck
much the same chord in me as that book. If these civilizations
based on other religions are just as peaceful and enlightened as
ours, why haven't they advanced their citizenry in liberty,
education, and technology like the West (based on Christianity)
has? I enjoy your articles. Keep it up!
Tim
Hi Tim,
I've heard of the book, but haven't read it yet.
I must try to get hold of it.
Charles
Re: The 'Dueling Civilizations' Letters
From Steve Watkins
Charles,
I quote from your article:
"How the hell can you reason with people like that?"
I think that single sentence pretty much sums up the whole
problem. I was watching one of the evening newsmagazines (I think
it was Dateline NBC), and there was a story on Iran. Most of the
young people interviewed bore no hatred for America, and in fact
many admired our freedoms and culture. While this interview was
going on, a large crowd was assembled outside for prayers -
chanting "Death to Israel; Death to America."
Thanks for a thoughtful and insightful article.
Steve
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your comments.
Charles
Dueling Civilizations Islam and the West
From Noah B. Wallace
Hi Charles,
I was just browsing the responses to
your article on Low End Mac. I have a few problems with your
article:
First. Do you think that using Low End Mac as a bully pulpit to
throw out your non computer opinions is really acceptable? Well
maybe it's your chunk of bandwidth and you may do with it what you
want. Maybe there's a better site. Maybe something like "Born Again
Technologists."
Second. The whole idea of someone who makes Christianity, or any
other kind of religion for that matter, the center of their of
their philosophy using the word reason astounds me. Really. You
hold up a bunch of 2000 year old writings. The Muslims hold up a
bunch of 2000 year old writings and all of you argue about who's
values are correct. If it wasn't such a source of human misery I'd
laugh. Both religions (and maybe all religions) have had their
share of atrocities inspired by their respective tenets. Neither
one of these refuges of the frightened and small minded have any
place in reasonable discourse.
Let's play a little game. It's called live a consistent
existence. First I ask a question. Do you believe in Darwinism
(essentially that asks is the Bible the literal truth)? If you say
yes, I say well you're not really a Christian are you? You've
thrown away half of the tenets (the Old Testament) of your
religion. If you say no, my response might be "So the scientific
method means nothing to you?" then you have to forfeit everything
that science (that would be the work of man not God) gave you. That
is nothing that uses a transistor, no modern medicines, no steam or
internal combustion engines, no Macs or PCs.
That's right. Who are the Luddites but the most consistent
Christian sect.
I'm sorry to say this, but I don't have time for inconsistent
belief systems. Yours is right in there. At least the Muslims
pretend to reject technology. They will use it though. Especially
cell phones and jet air plane. The fact that the most recent
religious atrocities have been caught on video and happen to have
been perpetrated by Muslims doesn't mean the body count isn't more
or less the same as integrated over history. Your religion in its
current state is more civilized. That isn't to say that it has
always been that way. Or for that matter it will always be that
way.
How about a little more. How are your religious rites any better
than some primitive tribe dancing around a fire? Because they're
indoors with plumbing and electric lights? Please. Man has always
been afraid. Afraid of the dark, of natural disasters, of death.
The fact that your security blanket is wrapped in a more gilded box
doesn't make it any better than anyone else's. They're all products
of ignorance and fear. It's people like the suicide bombers, and
the Jerry Falwells, and the Pat Robertsons, and the Zionists, and
you all telling us who has the best way to avoid the big empty at
the end that is the source of a huge amount of human misery and
despair. There is no room for enlightenment in any of this. No one
wants their parishioners to be anything but ignorant. If mankind
could understand anything but the most basic intellectual ideas and
the the rudiments of reason we wouldn't have people like Bin Laden
or Arafat or the Pope, or you telling people what to believe. It
wouldn't pass the most piddling litmus test of reason.
That's all for now. I encourage you to restrain yourself in
demonstrating your ignorance.
Noah B. Wallace
Ph.D. Physics
Hi Dr. Wallace,
Re: Christianity and reason; ever hear of Thomas
Aquinas, who postulated the most comprehensive argument for the
rationality of the Christian faith?
I have no problem with the scientific method, as
far as it can take us, which is not all that far. It's a
circumscribed technique for observing and quantifying fragmented
facts, but far from the last word, even in its own context.
I'm not a Darwinist. I do believe that the
biological component of humanity is probably the product of some
sort of evolutionary process, but one that was initiated by the
Divine Creator, but that humanity itself - what makes homo sapiens
essentially different from the animals, is no result of natural
selection or evolution of any sort, and that living spirit was
breathed into the proto human by God.
As for Western civilization, I contend that it is
undeniably a product of the Christian religion and Christian
culture, and anyone who denies this is indulging in selective
ignorance. I have little use for the so-called Enlightenment
(die Aufklarung), but it is very interesting that modern
science and technology (which I consider mixed blessings) were
developed in a culture that was Christian-based and nowhere
else.
Charles
Dueling Civilizations
From: Tom Gabriel
Dear Mr. Moore,
Thank you for your insightful article. If there is anything to
be learned from the events of 9/11/2001, I think it is incumbent
upon us to look at it and try to learn, if only in that way to
honor the unwitting sacrifice of thousands of lives.
There is, I believe, a strong message for each of us in this
hideous tragedy. Perhaps each will take it in his/her own way,
because it is indeed an individual message. Events of great impact,
whether positive or so overwhelmingly negative, tend to have that
effect.
For me, the acts of the Islamic terrorists speak to everyone of
every religion (or belief) and are a cry to all of us. The message
I get is a strong warning about fundamentalism of any sort
overpowering any sense of goodness or any benefit that can come
from any form of religious or spiritual belief, no matter its
form.
I do not believe any religion can boast of a clear record in
this matter, including the Christian. To say that the various
transgressions of Christianity, whether the holocaust of
"witch-burning" in the Middle Ages (actually designed to deprive
women of standing and property, as well as scare people away from
the old matriarchal religion) or the bombing of abortion clinics or
the "Religious Right's" attempt to dictate to us all what our
conduct should be (How about "judge not lest you be judged"?) is
irrelevant to the issue is a cop-out. It is relevant to the last
word, the last action, all of it.
It is from this kind of behavior that I believe every man and
woman who has any sense of their connection to God (or Goddess, or
Source, or whatever name) has a responsibility to turn away.
Resolutely and firmly.
In conscience.
It is fundamentalism, no matter the name of the religion or its
particular form.
It is saying that we are holy and they are not, therefore
anything is justified against them (the infidels, the unclean, the
heathen).
Actually, Christianity at its clearest comes closer than a lot
of faiths (certainly including Islam) in recognizing that we are
all pretty much in the same boat as far as holiness is concerned.
It is in the decision of those who accept Christ and then figure
they are better than all those sinners and therefore can hate and
persecute them in perfect righteousness that the trouble lies.
Jesus Christ was not an intolerant figure (in fact, especially for
His time, He showed an enlightened, forgiving attitude that a few
of His followers today would do well to think about, long and
hard). He clearly grieved for humanity more than He ever judged
them (us).
That is an expression of unconditional love, which I believe is
one of the highest products of any religious/spiritual belief, and
I believe His demonstration of it - time and again - was a part of
His Being, and also a lesson for us.
If we see religion as a law, then those who follow the letter of
the law without giving due heed to its intent and indeed spirit
will breed conflict and violence. Religion without its highest
expression, without the highest aspirations of its followers (other
than world domination, or getting their precious behinds saved from
Hell) is nothing but words, and without its spirit, they can be
damned confusing words at that.
When you have an entire religion that seems to point its people
in this no-questioning, us vs. them, death and slavery to the
infidels direction, you have an example of the exact opposite of
Christ's example to us, and in my opinion you have an example of
precisely where fundamentalism of any sort will eventually
lead.
It isn't pretty.
It isn't very spiritual, and I don't think it is where any
responsible or even vaguely valid religion has any business leading
us.
Perhaps one of its worst qualities: it takes its followers away
from the place where they are allowed to use their minds and their
hearts to reason with those who differ from them - out of fear for
their immortal souls!
There really isn't, and never has been, "us vs. them" - we are
all "us", and "them" are just those of "us" who live down the road
apiece and maybe "think different" (or are made to). I don't
believe this world was created as a battleground. I think it was
made for all of us to learn respect for other beliefs, other races,
other ways of life.
The true purpose of the attacks on September 11, 2001, beyond
and beneath all the nonsense coming from bin Laden, et. al., was to
turn us away from that simple idea.
If we do it, they've won.
Keep the Faith, Charles,
Tom Gabriel
Hi Tom,
Anyone who thinks their profession of Christian
faith makes them morally superior on personal merit hasn't
understood the Gospel very well.
As St. Paul put it: "Christ Jesus came into the
world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."
It's a bit ludicrous to claim to be holier than
St. Paul.
Charles
Dueling Civilisations- Limiting God's
love?
From Glenn Ang
Dear Charles,
Here is my take on this topic. Your feedback is most
welcome.
Live Jesus in our hearts, forever!
We must keep in mind the following:
We pray to the same God
The founder of Islam, the Prophet Mohammed had great respect for
Jews and Christians. However, he was rejected and dismissed by both
Jews and Christians as a sect and a threat.
Jesus is greatly respected in Islam as a prophet (Isa), and so
is his mother, Mary (Mariam)
We also share many texts in our holy books; Jews, Christians,
and Muslims. Yes, it is also true that to Muslims: Jesus in not
God. However, is this an insurmountable block to our common
humanity?
The God we both pray to is a God of love, compassion, kindness
and mercy. Love knows no bounds and drives out all fear. We cannot
give up on the power of God's love to drive out fear and anger, nor
its power to bring people together as one. While a sizable number
of Muslims hold the views you espouse in your column, a similarly
sizable number also hold differing views.
Differing views that do not hark back to the "classical" Islam
you speak of. It is not that easy classify Islam. There are now
many branches that have come from the same root. Speaking of roots,
Christianity and Islam share the same roots. We are created in the
same image, by the same spirit, and the same love of God moves in
all of humanity and creation.
Our cultures and experiences have shaped our understanding of
God. Humanity in its weakness and frailty cannot claim to
completely understand the ways of God. While Jesus has revealed the
whole truth to us, we (like his disciples) can never fully
comprehend the depth and breadth of his message. In the same way,
we can never claim to fully understand our brethren(I cannot even
claim to fully understand my wife and son, whom I am with daily.).
We will always have our differences, but we will also always have
God's love in each of us. God never abandons his people, all of
whom he has created in his loving image. We are on a journey of
faith and love, together with all of humanity.
Do not give up on the power of the love of God and Christ to
bring people together, it works in ways we are only beginning to
comprehend. There are many passages in the Bible that speak of this
love of God (just as there are also many in the Koran) and Jesus
that resides in all of humanity. I will just quote two below:
John 1:1-5,14
Matt 25:31-46
In these passages, the Bible does not speak of different
standards of treatment across religion, race or creed. All creation
comes from the fullness of the love of God, Jesus and the Holy
Spirit. We cannot limit nor fully comprehend its workings in this
wonderful world of ours. Finally, all nations will come before
Jesus and God. Whether Christian, Muslim or otherwise, we are all
brothers in Christ and whatever we do to the least of us (for that
matter, to any of us) we do to Jesus. All nations and all of
humanity will be judged on how we have loved. After all, to have
loved is to have known Jesus. For Jesus is the God of love. God
bless.
Glenn Ang
Singapore
Hi Glenn,
I agree with much of what you say here. However,
persons who do not acknowledge Jesus as God cannot legitimately be
said to be praying to the same God as Christians. Jesus is not an
optional extra. I refer you to the Creed of St. Athanasius for the
exhaustive articulation of Trinitarian doctrine.
Jesus said:
"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel
to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be
saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark
16:15-16
"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6
St Paul affirmed:
"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and
given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of
Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in
earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should
confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Philippians 2:9-11
Not my formulations; I believe what the Bible
teaches.
God Bless,
Charles
Dueling civilizations
From: Derrick Streng
Mr. Moore,
I just finished reading your latest article on Islam and
skimming about half of the attached letters.
Great article, and some pretty well thought out letters. I
thought I might share some of my views on Muslims with you.
I've noticed an interesting pattern amongst almost all the
proponents of Islam in the news media of late; a justification of
the self declared evils of the Muslim faith by comparing it to the
hypocrisy within Christian history and present. A comparison of two
unrelated things; theological doctrine and social aberrance. There
is a difference between a church and it's doctrine. I cannot think
of a single theological group thoughout history that hasn't acted
in the name of their faith whilst the very act was contrary to the
doctrine that the group subscribes themselves to.
Hold people accountable for what they do - not the religion
which they profess. Unless, like with the Muslims, their doctrine
condones what they do. It's important to recognize that religion is
not a a guise for evil. Call it what it is. Don't fear being
"politically incorrect."
The United states of America, aside from being created from
Christianity's moral ethics, is based on agency (the ability to
choose for one's self) which, in and of itself, is a key principle
of Christianity. As you know, Mr. Moore, in the most fundamental
terms of their faith, Muslims would rob you and I of our agency
because we choose not to subscribe to their doctrine. We are
infidels. They would have us acted upon and not free to act for
ourselves.
"Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things
are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to
choose liberty and eternal life, through the great mediator of all
men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity
and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be
miserable like unto himself." - Lehi
Lehi is not saying, "ye who are righteous give the wicked
their consequence of death and captivity." No. What he is saying is
that when one follows the teachings of Jesus, one becomes free
through his atonement. When we choose wickedness we give up our
agency unto condemnation and spiritual death. God is the judge, and
we are free to choose.
Grant Streng
Inquisition - The 'Dueling Civilizations'
Letters
From Al Shep
Mr Moore
Please allow me these three points.
1) Interpretations of correct Christianity and Islam vary
radically. Stating that your view is the only correct view seems a
bit arrogant.
2) Past crimes in the name of Christianity and current crimes in
the name of Christianity (read the Balkans) are not valid crimes of
Christians. Christians do not slaughter women and children in the
"Lord's" name. I must also argue that you may be wrong were it
concerns Islam.
3) Bigotry and racism abound in the media, churches, and
throughout this fine country. Truth be told, your arguments sound
as if they have been unduly influenced by the bigotry and racism
you hear around us. Please take the time to look through the
media's sensationalism, and the misinformation that abounds to the
truth.
4) The "fruit of knowledge," at least my interpretation, granted
"man" knowledge of good and evil. May that man be woman, Christian,
Jew, or Muslim they still know fundamental right from wrong. This
is not a cultural thing, but a fundamental of humanity.
5) We as Americans and Christians do not have such a wonderful
track record of reasoning. Take racism, sexism (notably that we
should look the other way when a man beats his wife and or
children), the way we treat the infirm (lepers), the retarded, the
old, the young, the whatevers. We as a people have often been lax
in our judgment. (Special note, look back to how so many took their
children to public lynching where at times men were burned alive to
music and popcorn).
Consider your comments are blanket statements. I remember
hearing that the Klan felt that there would eventually be a race
war as black and white cultures were fundamentally at odds. If I
remember correctly, they felt that blacks fundamentally had a
different history and values than their white brothers. They
pointed to specific ideologies that they felt were obvious points
of conflict. I personally found their arguments flawed and naive.
They knew and probably know so little about the black culture yet
presume to understand the beliefs. They are wrong, as I think you
too are.
I am not calling you a Klan member, just pointing out that what
seems sound reasoning is sometimes clouded by misinformation and
false assumptions.
I must commend you on your very courteous and thoughtful replies
to the comments, though you did kind of tarnish them with the
opening paragraphs. So I would like to pose this off topic
question.
I would like your view on the view I have heard and tend to
agree with which is that Jesus never said to not follow the
teachings of the Old Testament. Like the incident with the
potential stoning of Jezebel. I was taught that the issue was not
that the law was unjust, but that the carrying out of the
punishment was unjust. Why was the man not stoned? Did these
potential stoners have a moral right to carry out the stoning (I
took this to mean did not some of them cheat)? My question more
directly is that should we not live the life of a Jew and attempt
to follow the Lord's guidelines rather than taking the easier road
of current Christianity. Should we not go back to stoning
fornicators (this would definitely cut down on unwed mothers, at
least living ones)? Should we not go back to allowing indentured
servitude?
~al
Hi Al,
I'm a Catholic Christian (Anglican Catholic). I
humbly accept the Church's traditional interpretation of
Christianity as correct.
Christianity is full of paradoxes.
Jesus said:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or
the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I
say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle
shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,
and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom
of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be
called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That
except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the
scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom
of heaven."
And a bit farther on:
"It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his
wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto
you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause
of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall
marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."
So is some respects, Jesus was even tightening up
the law of the Old Testament.
But to the crowd about to stone the adultress, He
advised:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first
cast a stone at her."
What he was illustrating in Matthew 5-8 is the
futility of our trying to be righteous on our own merit. Can't be
done. That's what the Atonement is about.
See Romans Ch. 6, 7, 8 for St. Paul's explanation
of what obtains.
Charles
Thank You - Re: Inquisition - "The 'Dueling Civilizations'
Letters"
From Al Shep
Thank you, and let me apologize for the tone of my question and
some of my statements. I can see them being offensive, and I humbly
apologize. When I write off the cuff, I don't always stop and think
how it sounds or edit for clarity.
Thanks for the excellent answers to my questions concerning
Christ. I really need to sit down with a minister or priest. (I
consider both to be excellent sources of insight into the Bible,
though I am Baptist by upbringing. My sister in law is a Catholic,
and I was surprised to find the priests to be rather cool. At
church, my ministers had little good to say about Catholic priests,
and I was shocked when I found one priest to be an almost normal
person.)
I must also admit to disagreeing with you on some of your Mac
views as well, but even there you give a great deal to think about
the wonders of the Macintosh universe. Your writings are often
inspired, and quite good reads. Your fact checking is also
excellent. Your opinions (hey, I think the 5200 is a great little machine, if that gives
you insight into my quirky views) are debatable (though best done
by ones better than me).
I know you are busy so do not bother responding in any way if
you do happen to read this. You seem a prolific writer and I would
hate to slow your excellent spreading of knowledge.
~alex
PS - again please forgive the bad grammar.
Re: Dueling Civilizations: Islam and the
West
From Dmitri Popov
Hi Charles,
Thank you very much for your answer. I must admit that your
arguments sound very convincing. I really admire your almost
renaissance knowledge - from PowerBooks to Islam - and I'm an avid
reader of your columns at Low End Mac and Mac Opinion. Thank you
for your great articles!
Regards,
Dmitri
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