Dan Knight
- 2006.08.15
I've had quite an education in mice, ADB, USB, and PS/2 ports in
response to Optical ADB Mouse
Wanted, but Who Will Build It?
ADB, PS/2, and USB ports all use 4 pins - one for power (5V),
one for ground, and from there they diverge. ADB has a dedicated
"power on" line so ADB Apples could be powered up from the keyboard
in addition to a data line.
The PS/2 port used a 6-pin connector but only 4 lines for data.
Although different from ADB, some mice are sold with an adapter so
they can be used with both types of ports.
USB uses two lines for data, one + and one -. As noted in
the Wikipedia
article, they "use half-duplex differential signaling to combat
the effects of electromagnetic noise on longer lines."
The differential signaling could make it challenging to adapt a
USB mouse to an ADB port, and then there's the whole issue of data
bits, peripheral IDs, data rates, and encoding. One suggestion has
been a "reverse iMate" (Griffin's $40 device for connecting ADB
devices to USB).
Finally, it seems that Kensington has updated their
Mouse-in-a-Box ADB/USB to fully optical status, where it had been
an opto-mechanical mouse in the past. I'll be ordering one and
reporting back. - Tip Jar
Mouse Power Requirements
Chris Seibold writes:
Hi Dan,
Checked into laser mouse power requirements, and from what I can
tell most laser mice need 5V and 100 mA. Turns out that the ADB
port provides, heh, 5 volts and devices are required to use only
100 mA (though the bus could supply up 500 mA). So running a laser
mouse via ADB shouldn't be any problem at all. I suppose you'll
lose the ability to yank the mouse out and plug something else in
the ADB port though....
I'm also thinking that Wacom had laser mice with their tablets
back when the things still plugged into the ADB port.
Chris
You're right, Chris, Wacom had optical mice that
had to be used in conjunction with their tablet.
Thanks for the info on power requirements. I know
my wireless mice all run comfortable with a pair of AA NiMH
batteries, so about 2.4V.
Dan
Early Optical ADB Mouse
Marion Delahan writes:
I have used optical ADB mice with my older Mac. Of course they
were the older kind that required use of a metal gridded mousepad,
but I had two different ones over the course of my Mac life. Only
button, and they looked like the even older "bar of soap" Mac
mouse, but both worked a treat. I bought the second because I plain
wore out the first.
Marion Delahan
Yeah, Marion, I remember those. I think it was A2
who made one way back in the early ADB era. Between that and Wacom,
there were two optical ADB mice, but they each needed to be used
with a special pad.
Dan
Mouse Systems Optical Mouse
Bill Brown writes:
Yo Dan,
I hold in my hand an optical ADB mouse. The logo on the top says
"Mouse Systems". The label on the bottom reads:
- Mouse Systems
- A/3 Mouse
- Model No. 403243-001
- MSC 403243-001
- S/N: MSC ET 025049
- FCC ID: CWE-403243
- Made in Taiwan for Mouse Systems Corp.
- Fremont, CA. 94538
- U.S. Pat No 4751380
- HI 4920260
This mouse requires a specific aluminum mousepad with a fine
mesh dot grid printed on it. The mousepad in hand reads "Mouse
Systems" on top and on the bottom bears a sticker reading: NEQ
402631-001
My mousepad has a badly worn off grid pattern rendering the
mouse near useless. However sufficient of the printed grid is
present to demonstrate that this optical mouse works very well
indeed.
I have tried this mouse with any number of surface patterns and
textures. To date nothing other than the specific mousepad
described above works, not even a hint of work. Replicating that
grid is essential for this mouse to work.
It is a three button mouse in the classic lines of the mouse
that came with the Mac SE and later Macs until the arrival of the
oval ADB mouse. I am so one button oriented when using older Macs
that I have no idea if the other two buttons do anything. I would
suspect a driver is needed for the two extra buttons to do
anything.
This mouse appears to be ADB powered. There is no apparent place
to put a battery. It is ancient. It still works. I suspect ADB
power.
This mouse works with any ADB Mac I have connected it to without
driver software. I have connected it to my Beige G3 running Mac OS
10.4.6 Tiger via XPostFacto where it works fine.
I Googled "403243-001" and came up with a list of useful places
to start.
My main Mac (either my Beige G3 or a Mac Mini) uses an early
Microsoft wireless mouse with some sort of a proprietary receiver
dongle that the mouse rests on. I am addicted to a scroll wheel and
the wireless. I still have no feel for a "right click" at all.
I have two or three of these things somewhere in my basement
that work. If you wish this one, I will mail it to you in exchange
for a lifetime subscription to Low End Mac. Oh, and I want an
option on one of those 500 new optical ADB mouses. A deal?
Bill Brown
Use it up; wear it out; make it do; do without.
It's a deal, Bill. Thanks to a couple of emails
and some discussion on our PCI PowerMacs list, I've become
reacquainted with Mouse Systems and their early optical mice. There
was an A/2 before the A/3, which you have, and I know at one point
I worked at a store where we had a bear of a time selling them.
People didn't want to have to use a special mousepad.
Fortunately for us, the rest of the optical mouse
industry went a different route, and today's optical mice work on
just about everything except for mirrors and glass tabletops.
Dan
UPDATE: Bill sent me a very used A/3 mouse with a
very worn mousepad, which I hope to report on later.
ADB Optical Mouse Technically Feasible
Marin Balabanov writes:
Hi,
I doubt that there is any technical reason for not producing an
ADB optical mouse. I have an old Atari ST with a PS/2-Adapter and a
regular optical PC-mouse. This works fine and it is attached to a
joystick-port (MSX-standard).
The real reason is probably the low market share of ADB-equipped
Macs.
Cheers
Marin
Risk Assessment
Let's say (incorrectly) that I'm a capable engineer/entrepreneur
interested in your proposition.
Lessee... 500 mice X $25 = $12,500 retail, maybe $8,000
wholesale?
Some good fraction of that, maybe $7,000, would have to be for
parts, leaving $1,000 gross margin. That's to design, test drivers
on almost every ADB Mac ever made, contract for parts, assemble....
Hmmm, not looking too good yet.
OK, maybe some additional users will buy these. How many people
there are who have been using their existing computers for more
than four years without (yet) seeing the benefit from upgrading
their mice at the $25 price that used to be out there. (Or has it
been even longer since Apple sold ADB computers?) These users are
on computers that sell for $100 or less on eBay, so you'd think
that if they cared about a better working experience, they'd go for
a Mac mini that runs 10x as fast. No, these guys have something
that ain't broke and ain't gonna be fixed.
Oh, and BTW, this Mr. Knight might predictably have a hissy fit
if I stick him with all these mice and then advertise 'em thru
major Mac retailers (allowing him to guarantee a tiny production
run, but cutting him out of any sales). I'm going to depend totally
on the reach of LEM or (rightly) be accused of slimeball business
tactics. If he turns out not to be good for his word, I probably
write down a few months of work.
So, I can spend a few months of my life designing and risk my
reputation & wallet by standing behind a product that one
customer will buy, who will likely end up unhappy with all his
unsold inventory, for $1,000 and maybe, if all the stars align
properly, $5,000 - not enough to displace the income that I'd get
for doing almost anything else more interesting that schlepping
lattés at Starbucks. And maybe not even better than that.
All downside and the risk of worse downside.
You don't need a technical evaluation of ADB, you need a course
in Business 101.
Walt French
Thanks for your assessment.
I'm working on the assumption that it would be
relatively trivial to modify the circuitry inside a PS/2 or USB
mouse to work with ADB. All three use 5V with 100mA draw. USB uses
differential signaling with two wires; ADB and PS/2 use a single
data wire.
ADB uses a standard DIN connector, so it could be
as simple as rewiring an existing design - or as complicated as
having to modify some chip or another inside the mouse to "speak
ADB". That I don't know.
As far as testing goes, ADB is ADB. It's a very
simple, basic protocol. The bigger issue might be drivers, and I'm
hoping I could find someone willing to modify existing drivers and
license them at reasonable cost.
Low End Mac is the one entity on the globe likely
to successfully tap into this market. We have over a quarter
million site visitors per month, and we have over 600 subscribers
on our Vintage Macs email list alone (every 680x0 Mac released
since 1987 has ADB). Add another 150 with NuBus Power Macs and 220
with PCI Power Macs. Throw in a few PowerBook users and beige G3
owners for good measure. Figure some redundancy, and we have about
1,000 Mac users still wed to their pre-USB hardware on our mailing
lists alone.
There are companies out there selling $4-5 mice.
If an optical ADB mouse can be built using an existing design, I
see no reason why it couldn't retail in the $20-30 range.
Best of all, it would be a unique product. Anyone
looking for a new mouse for their beloved old Mac would probably be
thrilled to have an optical one and eliminate all the headaches
from degunking their old mechanical mice.
Or not. Still, it's a risk I'm willing to take.
With a worldwide reach, I don't think we'd have any problem selling
500 optical ADB mice within a year.
Dan
Kensington Mouse-in-a-Box USB/ADB
Ray Steveson says:
There actually is a "current" optical ADB mouse, courtesy of
Kensington:
Mouse-in-a-Box USB/ADB
The one big drawback of this mouse is that it's only one button.
But, if the mouse includes a USB -> ADB adaptor, perhaps that
would be useful with a two (or more) button mouse?
Have a nice day,
Ray Steveson
Thanks for writing, Ray, but the Mouse-in-a-Box
USB/ADB is an opto-mechanical mouse. That means it has "optical
technology", as stated on the Kensington page, but it has a mouse
ball, so you've still got the old mechanical problems of gunk
buildup and parts wearing out. (I had to download the PDF version
of the manual to verify that.)
Dan
Kensington Mouse-in-a-Box USB/ADB Now
Optical
Madison Nye writes:
Dan,
Kensington manufactures an optical mouse that is ADB compatible
- I have one. The end of the cord is actually USB, and an adapter
is included
that is similar to the USB > PS/2 adapters commonly included
with PC peripherals, except it converts the USB to an ADB
connector. I use the
mouse on a project computer of mine, an upgraded 9600 running
7.6.1, and it works like a charm. Here is a link to the mouse:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2259679
Best wishes,
Madison Nye
Thanks for writing, Madison, but while brief
descriptions of this mouse talk about "optical tracking", all the
detailed descriptions say it's a mechanical mouse with a mouse ball
that uses a optical sensor to track movement of the mouse ball.
If Kensington has changed the mouse and made it
completely optical, it's news to me. (And worth picking up at US$25
or less!)
Dan
More on Kensington Mouse-in-a-Box USB/ADB
Bernard Grobman says:
I have one, It's the latest generation of the Kensington
Mouse-in-a-Box. It's optical and works with either ADB or USB.
Check it out. It's great.
I keep hearing this, and Kensington's site says,
"Now optical for more precise tracking." I'm going to have to
investigate further.
Again on Kensington Mouse-in-a-Box USB/ADB
Douglas Carroll says:
So, I received my
ADB optical mouse today in the mail . . . works
great!! I can't understand why you don't reference this in your
article...
Douglas
All I can say, Douglas, is that the last time I
looked at the Kensington Mouse-in-a-Box ADB/USB, it was an
opto-mechanical mouse. I'm going to have to order one online if the
local CompUSA doesn't
stock them.... (Update: They don't, but CompUSA does sell them for
US$21.99 online.)
Optical ADB Mice vs. PCI USB Card &
USB Mouse
Bob Forsberg writes:
Dan
I've admired Low End Mac for many years and read it daily. Your
insight and product information has been a great help to me.
Until recently I've been using my old ADB mouse and M2980 Apple
Keyboard on an old [Power Mac] 9500
running Mac OS 8.6, with a G3/400 card, 1.5 GB RAM & Panasonic
CD burner. I use it exclusively for scanning slides (SCSII) to
Photoshop 6 and burning to CD-Rs, mostly for family and
friends.
My 1.25 GHz eMac has the
standard optical mouse, and my 3.2 GHz Sony PC uses a great
Microsoft Wireless Optical 2.0 setup that I will continue using
when I get a Leopard Mac Pro 3.x
to replace my eMac and PC sometime next spring.
The ADB mouse got clogged in the middle of editing photos, and I
wanted to get the job done without cleaning the whole thing. I
moved my eMac USB mouse over to the existing USB card I added [to
the 9600] last year. The Apple optical worked immediately after a
restart. I didn't need to add additional drivers or tweak
anything.
An add-in USB card using existing optical mice inventory is the
way to go. I'm a manufacturer of electronic test equipment to the
electronics industry. ADB's are not simple to make an adapter for -
not all that difficult either, but time consuming with no real
profit motive for a dying market. Also the humanity motive doesn't
exist either, since a viable substitute with a USB card/mouse
works.
When ADB-only Macs with no expansion capabilities go for $10-$20
on eBay,
you will be hard pressed to find anyone willing to invest
engineering time and manufacturing costs to ship you a part that
would cost more than the computers are selling for. I once thought
of rewiring a 7100AV internally to
have its USB port run thru the Geo port, but I ran out of play time
and had to get back to work.
The only people I know of who make adapters for the Geo port to
output USB is Addlogix. They might be
able to help. Other than that approach, I believe ADB will RIP.
My Best,
Bob Forsberg
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Bob. For those
with PCI Macs, buying a $10 or so USB card makes sense - also
because it's getting very hard to find printers that support
Apple's old serial port.
I can't talk to the economics of adding a $25
mouse to a $10 computer, but I know a lot of Color Classic users
are very passionate about their computers. I think Low End Mac
attracts enough vintage Mac lovers to pull this off, but Kensington
may have a solution. I've received several emails indicating that
their Mouse-in-a-Box ADB/USB is now fully optical (it used to be
opto-mechanical). I'm planning on buying one and testing it.
Dan
Goodsystems ADB Optical Mouse
Charles
Broderick writes:
Hi Dan,
Somewhat coincidentally, last weekend, I dragged out an optical
mouse I acquired via eBay, to use with my 1280 x 1024 LCD screen,
as my beloved trackball just wasn't as precise as I needed (there
is a long, involved low end mac story behind this, but I'll save
that for another day . . . article maybe?).
Anyway, after reading your piece, I have scanned in the box and
the manual it came in, in case it helps out any. I did not see you
mentioned this one in your addendum, the "Laser Pro" by Goodsystems
(sadly, the website does not exist anymore). My mouse requires a
special mousepad, the upper half is thinly spaced vertical lines,
and the lower half is thinly spaced horizontal line, I assume to
help it track.
It works beautifully! I wish I had an ADB mouse like this
before. I love my trackball, but at higher monitor resolutions,
this is the best option. By the way, in OS X and USB, I do not like
the current Apple mouse. I still prefer a trackball.
HTH,
Charles
Thanks for sharing this info, Charles. A quick
Google search shows a few postings about this mouse from 1999. This
is one I'd never heard of.
Yes, I'd never heard of it either, until I got it.
According to the blurb on the box, it worked in System 7.5 and
above. With three buttons, the middle emulating a double-click, and
the right button keeping menus open, it would have been quite
advanced in its day.
I was using it last weekend (in OS X on my Power Mac 8600, using XPostFacto). It was
working "upside down and backwards." I thought it was "broken"
under OS X. Then I realized I had the mousepad upside down!
When I corrected that, it worked perfectly!
-Charles
Stealth Adapter Most Economical
Choice?
Michael Winterstein says:
Assuming that Stealth ADB-PS/2
connector works as advertised (and you can still get one),
wouldn't the easiest option be to go with that + a PS/2 optical? I
picked up a two-button & scroll-wheel optical mouse for $5 that
I still use on my Windows PC at work. As for a new ADB mouse, I
think the technical hurdles are more likely in the communications
protocol than in other requirements. Without a huge market, though,
I don't know if it'd be much cheaper anyway.
Michael Winterstein
The Stealth adapter is certainly the easiest
solution, and with USB mice cheap these days, it may be as
economical as buying a genuine ADB optical mouse would be.
Dan Knight has been publishing Low
End Mac since April 1997. Mailbag columns come from email responses to his Mac Musings, Mac Daniel, Online Tech Journal, and other columns on the site.
